How well can you hear audio quality

How well can you hear audio quality

Почему вам достаточно mp3, а Lossless не нужен

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Консерваторию не заканчивали? Тогда losseless Вам не нужен, слушайте качественный mp3.

Очень часто встречаются индивиды, презирающие сжатые форматы в принципе. Не стоит ориентироваться на их мнение. Очередные модники, которые в исследовании с вероятностью 90% не услышат отличий сжатого звука от несжатого.

Что такое mp3

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MP3 придуман не только для того, чтобы резать качество. Его разработкой занималось Общество Фраунхгофера — объединение институтов прикладных исследований Германии. Они же позже придумали AAC, который мог бы стать главным форматом сжатого звука… Но не получилось.

А Вы знали, что MP3 бывает с переменным (VBR) и постоянным битрейтом (CBR)? Постоянный битрейт, ввиду работы алгоритма, кодируется каждый раз как в первый. Поэтому может выдавать неровное качество, а это значит – не всякий звук в таком раскладе будет качественно записан.

Поскольку MP3 появился довольно давно, он обладает массой ограничений. Разрядность — 16–24 бита. Частота дискретизации представлена следующим набором вариантов: 8; 11,025; 12; 16; 22,05; 24; 32; 44,1; 48. Максимальный битрейт не превышает 320 кбит/с. Максимальное число каналов — 2. Но мы все-таки о музыке говорим, мультиканальные записи еще поискать надо.
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А таперь давайте посмотрим, как кодируется MP3. На иллюстрации — частотно-временное распределение звука. Одна и та же запись: Audio CD, OGG-файл, хорошо закодированный MP3. Что наблюдаем — куски справа и слева совпадают практически полностью. Значит, MP3 файл звучит практически так же, как оригинальная запись на компакт-диске.

Человеческий слух и его пределы — психоакустика

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Дело в том, что основная задача Общества Фраунхгофера — разработка психоакустических моделей человеческого восприятия звука. И здесь есть много тонкостей. Главная — мы не дельфины.

Во-вторых, существуют определенные ограничения на количество одновременно воспринимаемых звуков. Человек одновременно способен слышать не более 250 звуков из 24 диапазонов (причем, количество одновременных звуков в диапазоне так же довольно мало).

В-третьих, слышимый диапазон составляет от 16 Гц до 20 кГц и к 60 годам снижается почти в два раза. В идеальном случае и при тренировках (да-да, его необходимо тренировать!).

Все частоты ниже 100 Гц воспринимается не слуховыми клетками, а… кожей. Потом низкие волны переотражаются в слуховом канале – эти волны и воспринимаются как инфрабас. (Это из области костной проводимости.)
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Более того — число регистрирующих акустические волны клеток у каждого различно. Да что там — у каждого отдельно взятого человека их число в правом и левом ухе отличается.

Кстати, и восприятие каждым ухом различается. Поменяйте местами каналы в любимой композиции — получите новое звучание.

Если копнуть глубже, оказывается, что каждая частота звука воспринимается только при определённой громкости. При её достижении, тишина сменяется резким и достаточно отчётливым звуком. После человек может слышать и более тихий звук этой частоты.
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Другое интересное свойство слуха — чем меньше уровень громкости, тем меньше его разрешающая способность, меньше число воспринимаемых звуков. При снижении громкости лучше воспринимаются высокие частоты, при увеличении — низкие. И они не дополняют, а сменяют друг друга.

Человек не воспринимает некоторые звуки, концентрируя внимание на других. Обратите внимание — отчетливо, осознаваемо слышен обычно один инструмент, или вокал. Все прочее превращается в фон или единое созвучие. И на чем бы мы не концентрировались в композиции, увеличить число воспринимаемых основных звуков нам не под силу.

Как создается mp3

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Все эти данные, полученные при экспериментальных исследованиях, сведены воедино и представлены в виде идеальной модели человеческого слуха. Именно на нее ориентирован стандарт MP3.

Все, что человек однозначно не слышит — обрезается сразу. Дальнейшая обработка ухудшает звучание в соответствии с пониманием этой модели.

Благодаря большой проведённой работе современные психоакустические модели достаточно точно оценивают человеческий слух и не стоят на месте.

На деле, несмотря на заверения любителей музыки, музыкантов и аудиофилов, для среднестатистического, нетренированного слуха MP3 в максимальном качестве обладает практически предельными параметрами.

Исключения есть, их не может не быть. Но они не всегда легко заметны при слепом прослушивании. И следуют они уже не из механизмов работы слуха, а из алгоритмов обработки звуковой информации мозгом.

И здесь играют роль только личностные факторы. Всё это и объясняет, почему мы любим разные модели наушников и почему численные характеристики аудио не могут однозначно определить качество звука.

В MP3 умещается все: качество аналоговых записей

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Настойчивость аудиофилов, требующих FLAC, стоит просеивать через еще одно серьезное сито. Большая часть аналоговых записей не содержит достаточного количества информации для losseless-форматов.

Все компакт-диски записаны с частотой дискретизации 44,1 кГц и квантованием 16 бит. Откуда здесь возьмутся 192 кГц и 24/32 бита, которые используются при кодировании во FLAC? Их же нет, это пустышка!

Вы возразите, что для аналогового звука эти параметры выше… Но для аудиокассеты и магнитной ленты (если, конечно, это не японский мастер-тейп) характеристики AudioCD НЕДОСТИЖИМЫ. Для массового студийного оборудования возможность записи аналогового звука, соответствующего AudioCD, появилась относительно недавно.

Поэтому нет смысла оцифровывать с бешеным качеством запись из доцифровой эпохи, в особенности сделанные на магнитных носителях. Они не содержат тех спектров и того количества информации, которые могут хранить контейнеры без сжатия.

В MP3 умещается все: цифра

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Строго говоря, с большинством цифровых записей — та же самая картина. В 90-е годы и позднее появились дешёвые пластмассовые бумбоксы. Звукорежиссёрам пришлось заботиться о едином звучании на всех устройствах — динамический диапазон записей порезали до 10-12 бит.

Еще один момент. До недавнего времени никто не записывался на студии слишком в высоком качестве. Потому что одновременно работать с несколькими десятками аудиодорожек с высоким качеством записи сложно, а иногда просто недостаточно человеческих и технических ресурсов.

Если все это кажется неубедительным — посмотрите результаты любого слепого теста. Можно распознать систему, можно распознать наушники. Но вот отличить качественный MP3 (CBR 320 kbps, Lame 3.93) от FLAC удается только самым прокаченным гурманам.

Давайте посчитаемся, супергерои. Кто из вас может отличить lossless от lossy, на каком материале, и на какой аудиосистеме?

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Николай Маслов

Не инженер, радиофизик и музыкант. Рассказываю о технике простым языком.

How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality?

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Archsam

Senior Member

I got 3 out of 6.

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Xulonn

Major Contributor

You are probably not getting responses because there are several threads on this topic based on tests of compression/bitrate vs audibility that are more detailed and sophisticated.

Did you do a search before you posted?

Maxicut

Active Member

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Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor

Yes, we’ve had at least a couple of threads about it. That’s okay not like I do a search before any thread I start (though maybe I should).
For what it is worth I chose each correctly for 5 of the 6. On the JayZ my choice flipped the 320 MP3 and WAV. As I recall from the other thread a few people did the same missing on that same sample.

While listening I wasn’t sure I was hearing a difference other than the 128 sample. But I must have been. I listened over headphones for this one. I don’t remember if I tried it over speakers or not.

I just tried to find one of the threads to post a link, and couldn’t using search. oops

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Jimbob54

Master Contributor

Yes, we’ve had at least a couple of threads about it. That’s okay not like I do a search before any thread I start (though maybe I should).
For what it is worth I chose each corr
ectly for 5 of the 6. On the JayZ my choice flipped the 320 MP3 and WAV. As I recall from the other thread a few people did the same missing on that same sample.

While listening I wasn’t sure I was hearing a difference other than the 128 sample. But I must have been. I listened over headphones for this one. I don’t remember if I tried it over speakers or not.

I just tried to find one of the threads to post a link, and couldn’t using search. oops

Well I know I have golden ears because I have invested money in this hobby so clearly the test is flawed and *anxiety increases* there must be high levels of radiation in the atmosphere today *sweats» they must have used a good encoder on the Suzanne Vega 128 *chews lip*.

(Every time I do it I get the classical right, mix some 320 with wav and probably pick one or two 128)

How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality?

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Archsam

Senior Member

It’s a uncomfortable thought, but the bottleneck in the whole audio reproduction chain might be my own ears, and all the better gears with more accurate frequency response and lower distortion won’t make a big difference because my ears can’t tell the difference.

When I came across the test I just casually listened with my old B&W P7 plugged into my laptop, so the sound quality is hardly top notch, but maybe I’m just fooling myself by blaming the gears

I also think some of today’s studio mixes are to blame as well, especially on loud and bass heavy tracks being produced today. One example being Lana Del Rey, I have her Ultraviolence album in 24/44 Flac and I hear all sorts of clipping when listening my good setup.

Metallica is also infamous for the loudness war episode with the Death Magnetic album.

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Jimbob54

Master Contributor

PenguinMusic

Addicted to Fun and Learning

It looks like being now on ASR will save me some good money.

First, because I did not went for a super expensive DAC after reading here and there that some measure better than others but that for a vast majority of them, as long as they’re decently engineered, they will all sound about the same.

Second because of Headphone amps. I would have gone for something more expensive, but left it after reading some reveiws, even though my own HP amp was not reviewed 🙁

And now because of this. I used to believe that I could tell a difference between «high-res» and «standard res» and «low res» files. I made the test. And I must admit that my 50 years old ears allowed me not to check the «low res» files, but that it was more a wild guess to tell high-res from standard res apart. So I had about half answers «correct».
Of course it may be because of my system : I am listening to music through my computer, that sens music to an AUNE X8 DAC that itself feeds an AUNE X7s HP Amp that in turn feeds Oppo PM-1 Headphones. The weakest part may be the OS : it is Linux and it uses PulseAudio that resamples everything to 16/44 so maybe that can also explain the difference.
So to make sure I downloaded the same album from the same site twice (Qobuz) : in Hi-Res and Standard-Res and, to make sure, downloaded the same from another site (Deezer). I then played those songs over ALSA (so no resampling). And there, again, almost impossible to tell apart hi-res from standard res. and of course, impossible to my ears to distinguish Qobuz from Deezer.
Now I will have my ears «washed» for the next 2/3 days and see if that allows to hear a differnece, but from this experience I can tell that, almost for sure, if there is a difference between Hi-Res and Standard res, it is in all ways subtle.

How well can you hear audio quality

I’m sure its quite possible to find source that can’t be ABX from the 128k mp3 version if it doesn’t have content that excites any of the weaknesses in the lossy compression algorithm

even 128k mp3 coding improved from its early years

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1000+ Head-Fier

What do Police ID line ups have to do with this?

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Member of the Trade: HiBy / EFO technologies Co His Porta Corda walked the Green Mile

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Headphoneus Supremus

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Repeatedly defended arguments with personal attacks.

Depends on the coder. The musical selections used in the development of one of the early MPEG coders was detailed in a JAES paper by James Johnston, and did include Solitude Standing from the source you mentioned.

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Headphoneus Supremus

I believe that Steve Eddy had contacted JJ within the last month or so with regards to what type of sound characteristics would provide a challenge to the mp3 codec. SE had quoted JJ’s reply, but I don’t think I’d be able to locate the comment without some help.

Edit: The Google is strong with this one.

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500+ Head-Fier

One out of six, using Win7 > Chrome > Meridian Explorer > Tube Amp > Mission V66 tower speakers

Two out of six, using Win7 > Chrome > Meridian Explorer > Modded Fostex T50RPs

Similar results on the Tidal test.

However, comparing HiFi Tidal vs. my own 320Kbs ripped tracks, I can hear the improvement in Tidal’s HiFi.

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Headphoneus Supremus

One out of six, using Win7 > Chrome > Meridian Explorer > Tube Amp > Mission V66 tower speakers

Two out of six, using Win7 > Chrome > Meridian Explorer > Modded Fostex T50RPs

Similar results on the Tidal test.

However, comparing HiFi Tidal vs. my own 320Kbs ripped tracks, I can hear the improvement in Tidal’s HiFi.

Now, it has been established that the Tidal listening test here, http://test.tidalhifi.com/, has an audible and verifiably measurable difference between their own HiFi (FLAC/ALAC) and their lossy AAC 320 kbps files. http://www.head-fi.org/t/743658/tidal-lossless-listening-test-whats-going-on-here/15#post_11077298

I can quite easily pass the Tidal listening test 15/15, but I can’t pass an ABX between a Tidal lossless test sample and that same file converted with dBPoweramp to mp3. So, I am able to convert from lossless to lossy with no discernible difference identified through ABX, but somehow Tidal is unable to do the same thing?

I grabbed 2 of the test files from this post, http://www.head-fi.org/t/743658/tidal-lossless-listening-test-whats-going-on-here/15#post_11077558, and could pass an ABX, even with my refrigerator compressor running in the background during the test. I can take the same lossless file from this test, convert it myself to lossy, and my results are null. Also, I can take my own lossy version and successfully pass an ABX with the Tidal lossy file. Try it yourself. You may have different results. I don’t consider myself to be a particularly critical listener, and I think a well-encoded mp3 or aac is indistinguishable from lossless with the music I’ve heard. Though, I can pass an ABX between the Tidal lossless and their lossy files either directly from the test website or using Foobar.

If you can’t pass the Tidal test, when these are clearly shown to be different, yet you claim to be able to hear a difference with your own converted files, I strongly suggest that you take a close look at whatever process/tools you are currently using to rip a CD and convert to a lossy format.

How well can you hear audio quality

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500+ Head-Fier

Got this test online, and I gotta say, I am horrible at this.

I first used the direct computer audio out from my Dell to a BA200, I can’t tell a difference one way or the other.

Then I used the Stoner Acoustic UD100, to Beta22 amp to HE500 (I know, I need to upgrade my source), and while I can tell the 128kps sound for 5 out of the 6 tests (ironically, I couldn’t tell the difference for the Neil Young song when he came up with Pono), but I CONSISTENTLY picked 320 kps music over WAV, with the exception of the classical music.

I can hear that the 128k music is the worse quality, and that is somewhat apparent to me, but I can only tell there are slight differences between 320k and wav, and even then, I prefer 320k.

Man, I am really bad at this.

If interested, post and see how you did and share your experiences.

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Headphoneus Supremus

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100+ Head-Fier

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Repeatedly defended arguments with personal attacks.

Got this test online, and I gotta say, I am horrible at this.

I first used the direct computer audio out from my Dell to a BA200, I can’t tell a difference one way or the other.

Then I used the Stoner Acoustic UD100, to Beta22 amp to HE500 (I know, I need to upgrade my source), and while I can tell the 128kps sound for 5 out of the 6 tests (ironically, I couldn’t tell the difference for the Neil Young song when he came up with Pono), but I CONSISTENTLY picked 320 kps music over WAV, with the exception of the classical music.

I can hear that the 128k music is the worse quality, and that is somewhat apparent to me, but I can only tell there are slight differences between 320k and wav, and even then, I prefer 320k.

Man, I am really bad at this.

If interested, post and see how you did and share your experiences.

The NPR test is IMO pretty horrible. It is prone to both false positives and false negatives.

The right way to do this sort of thing involves the use of a software ABX Comparator such as FOOBAR2000 with the ABX plug in (freeware).

That in turn requires that the test files be separately downloadable.

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New Head-Fier

Listened to them all, wrote the answers down, then took a screen shot.
This is for people who say nobody can tell the difference.

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New Head-Fier

Listened to them all, wrote the answers down, then took a screen shot.
This is for people who say nobody can tell the difference.

Hmm, I was under the impression that the webpage will shuffle the choices (so the next time around the order may not be the same).

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Headphoneus Supremus

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Headphoneus Supremus

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Repeatedly defended arguments with personal attacks.

I don’t know why.

The alternatives seem to be primarily things that are generally accepted by most knowledgeable people to sound different.

If you can memorize how some alternative file sounds, then that counts as an audible difference.

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WARNING: BAD TRADER

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Headphoneus Supremus

Got this test online, and I gotta say, I am horrible at this.

I first used the direct computer audio out from my Dell to a BA200, I can’t tell a difference one way or the other.

Then I used the Stoner Acoustic UD100, to Beta22 amp to HE500 (I know, I need to upgrade my source), and while I can tell the 128kps sound for 5 out of the 6 tests (ironically, I couldn’t tell the difference for the Neil Young song when he came up with Pono).

.
I can hear that the 128k music is the worse quality, and that is somewhat apparent to me, but I can only tell there are slight differences between 320k and wav, and even then, I prefer 320k.

Man, I am really bad at this.

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. but I CONSISTENTLY picked 320 kps music over WAV, with the exception of the classical music.

I can hear that the 128k music is the worse quality, and that is somewhat apparent to me, but I can only tell there are slight differences between 320k and wav, and even then, I prefer 320k.

Like I said above, it depends on the range, and some of the more epic classical compositions have a very wide range of frequencies in them. Also, it can depend on the overall system response. If you’re using a system with a lot of bass boost or even also some treble boost, then that can make a properly recorded track bloated and sharp, but somewhat (note: not exact) evens out on 320kbps.

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100+ Head-Fier

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Headphoneus Supremus

So tell me from the below which is wav and which is mp3

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